汉娜西格尔（Hanna Segal) 谈梦

汉娜西格尔（Hanna Segal) 谈梦

1.    Freud is often misquoted; he never said the dream isthe royal road to unconscious; but he did say that the interpretation of thedream is the royal road to the unconscious.

弗洛伊德经常被错误地引用，他从没有说过梦是通向无意识的王道，但他确实说过梦的解释是通向无意识的王道。

2.    Nowadays, when we understand much more about theimportance of the transference and the developing relationship between thepatient and the analyst, we are also concerned with the function of the dream.Why does the patient have this dream and tell it to us in a particular way at aparticular time?

现在，我们对移情以及病人与分析师关系的重要性了解很多了，此时我们也关注梦的功能。病人为什么做了这样的梦以及为什么这个时候以这种方式告诉我们？

3.    Freud spoke of a dream as night-time hallucination. ButI think, in fact, that not all dreams are night-time hallucinations. Some arelike that; they are felt as very concrete. They sort of stay in the mind. Theiruse (I’m generalizing here) is not to establish a communication – a dream ascommunication between the unconscious phantasy and our conscious mind – but onthe contrary, to get rid of mental content. Bion speaks of patients who treattheir dream with shame, as though they had defecated or urinated in their beds.And in those situations dreams are not used to elaborate symbolically and tocommunicate to oneself or the analyst. They’re very close to hallucination. It’ssomething used to get rid of our own experience, by putting it outside. 

弗洛伊德说过梦是夜间幻觉，但是，我认为，事实上，并不是所有的梦都是夜间幻觉。有些是这样的，它们感觉着很具体。它们有点长在心里。它们并不是被用来交流的——梦作为无意识幻想和有意识的头脑进行交流的方式——而是相反，被用了消除掉精神内容。比昂谈起过这样的病人，他们对待与羞耻有关的梦就像他们尿了床似的。在这种情形下，梦不是被用来做象征性解释也不是来来和自己或分析师做交流的。它们非常接近于幻觉。这就像通过搁置起来的方式，除掉我们自己那些（如羞耻的）经验。

4.    I once had a patient who wrote down his dreams; hehad notebooks and books of them; he had an “agenda” in the analysis to gothrough his dreams. We were always years behind his agenda. He would come andread the dream and tell it to me and in this way it was as though the dream hadnothing to do with him. What was particularly striking was that he was veryoften getting rid of more positive parts of his psychic personality because those were the painful ones. For instance, he was extremely fixated on hismother; when she died, he had a lot of dreams which were extremely moving. He putthem in his little diary. This was not a way of working through his mourning,but a means of getting rid of it. And it comes very close to hallucinationbecause then dreams are used not to elaborate a psychic reality but to get ridof it by putting it in an image, telling it, invading the analyst’s mind withthe image, not really elaborating the problem. They are used for action – to seduce, to impress, to frighten. So we pay much more attention not only to the content, but also to what is the actual function that the dream performs. I won’t add more on this now because I’ve written a great deal on this.

我曾经有个病人，他总是会写下自己的梦。他拥有很多这样的笔记本记录这些梦。他在分析中有个日常安排专门来分析他的梦，我们这样做了好几年。他会来阅读他的梦，把梦告诉我，这种方式就像这个梦与他没什么关系一样。尤其引人注目的是他经常因为心里痛苦的部分而除掉那些更为积极的部分。比如，他极其依恋他的母亲，当她死时，他做了很多很多令人感动的梦。他把这些梦记录在他的小笔记本里。这不是修通悲伤的方式，而是一种除掉悲伤的方式。这样的方式非常接近是幻觉，因为，这样的话，这些梦不是被用来阐述心理现实，而是消除它们，通过把它们放入意象中，倾诉，用意象侵犯分析师的头脑，而不是真正地阐述这个问题。他们被诉诸行动——诱惑，给人深刻印象，恐吓。因此，我们不仅要更加注意内容，而且也注意梦所扮演的实际功能。这方面我不在多说了，因为已经写过很多相关的东西了。

5.    Freud used to give a sort of symbolic explanation;he would translate the symbol. We don’t do that now; one might sometimes justuse one fragment of the dream that the patient has brought. We don’t interpretsymbols in the same immediate automatic way. We don’t have a dictionary ofsymbols. One has to wait to know what this symbol means to this patient. Also onehas to be very watchful whether it really is a symbol or whether it’s felt as amore concrete thing. Whether this is contentious is difficult to say.

弗洛伊德曾经给出了一些象征性解释，他会翻译象征的含义。我们现在不这样做了，有时也许只使用病人带来的梦的一个片段。我们不再机械地直接地解释象征的含义。我们没有关于象征的词典。治疗师必须等待了解这个象征对于病人的意义是什么。另外，治疗师恶必须非常警惕，它是否真的是一个象征，或觉得它是一个更加具体的东西。

6.    Whatever culture we have is an outcome of pastculture. The past is always with us, that’s clear, whether in dreams or in theculture. But I don’t think, as Freud did, that we have got a sort of racialmemory of things in the past. I think it’s more that the current situation andenvironment carry the past to which we react.

无论什么样的文化都是过去文化的一种结果。过去总是伴随着我们，这很清楚，无论是在梦这领域还是在文化领域。但是，我并不像弗洛伊德那样，即我们拥有过去的种族记忆。我更加相信，现在情境携带着我们对过去的反应。

7.    Speculation can be dangerous in analysis. About dreamsin history, nobody who has any sense would say that that dream means this orthat for sure. But one might still speculate – knowing something of an artist’shistory and his preoccupations. One can have some freedom of thought here; wecan speculate, but we cannot say that because such and such symbols were there,it means anything for sure. 

在分析中，推测可能是危险的。在历史上，关于梦，没有任何人可以确定地说那个梦就意味着是这个或是那个。但是我们可以推测——了解一个艺术家的历史和他的偏见什么的。他可以自由地思考；我们可以推测，但我们不能说因为这个和这个象征，所以它就确定的是这个意思。

8.    Regarding the physical phenomena, as far as I know,there is nothing that really would contradict our view. I think at some point amuch greater synthesis has to be made.

关于自然现象，据我所知，还没有什么真正地与我们的观点相矛盾。我认为，在某种意义上来说，只是需要更大综合。

9.    Freud said that children’s dream are wish fulfillmentsand without any conflict. I don’t think now that analysis of children bearsthat out. We know that their dreams are as complicated and show the samemechanisms as adults ones.

弗洛伊德说儿童的梦是愿望的达成而且没有冲突。我现在不这么认为，对儿童的分析已经证明这点。我们知道他们的梦和成人的梦一样复杂，机制也相同。

摘自Daniel Pick and Lyndal Roper对刚过完80岁生日的汉娜所做的访谈：《精神分析、梦和历史：与汉娜西格尔的访谈》（Psychoanalysis, dreams, history: an interview with Hanna Segal）